JJ Pionke: I got you
Julie Edwards: welcome, everybody.
Julie Edwards: We are going to get started here in just a bit, but if you would like, you can jump over to the chat. Say, Hi, let us know where you're from. We do
Julie Edwards: save and publish the Chat Transcript, because there's so much great information that is shared in the chat, and you have a whole bunch of librarians in one room together. Please feel free. If you don't want to use the chat, you certainly do not have to. But if you would like to, we would love to
Julie Edwards: know where you're from. hey? Florida, North Carolina, Indiana people are rolling in. This is so great! Rhode Island. Wow! Everybody is coming in, hey? Hey? Everybody so great to see you. I saw Alaska float by. I see San Diego, Texas.
Julie Edwards: Brooklyn, Washington, New York. Hi! Hi! Everybody!
Julie Edwards: Hi, Trinidad and Tobago! I love seeing our international librarians love it, love it
Julie Edwards: so wonderful to see all of you. There is a huge audience for today's Webinar, and so I am going to go ahead and get us started. Feel free to keep saying Hi to each other. Come on in.
Julie Edwards: but it is the top of the hour here in Montana, where I am joining you from I'm. Julie Edwards.
Julie Edwards: I'm. A librarian and instructional designer with Niche Academy, and I would like to welcome you to today's webinar on disability accommodations in libraries. So I'm going to do our standard housekeeping first, and then we will get right into today's Webinar. So let me start by introducing Niche Academy.
Julie Edwards: Niche Academy is an easy to use all in one learning platform to help libraries create and deliver effective training and measure learner's success.
Julie Edwards: Our platform is the perfect tool. If you are looking to increase your E resource usage move programming, including your story times online and deliver and track training for staff development.
Julie Edwards: If you're interested in finding out more about our platform chatting with a member of our team. Hearing what your colleagues have to say, and how we can help your library, I will drop a link to our website in the chat, and you can learn more about us.
Julie Edwards: So we are recording this, Webinar. I will make the recording the slides and the chat available to everyone who is registered. After the presentation. You will get an email from me in a few days, so you can just sit back and absorb all the amazing things that Jj. Will be sharing with us this afternoon. I've already seen kudos to Jay coming in the chat. You have a fan club here today.
Julie Edwards: If you would like to use closed captioning, you can do that on. Zoom down at the bottom of your screen.
Julie Edwards: There are. Let's see. There are over 500 of us in the room already, so please go ahead and use the chat to talk with each other. But if you have a specific question for Jj: please put those in the questions and answers box.
Julie Edwards: and I will do my best to moderate the Q. A. At the end of the presentation with this many people. If you drop a question in the chat that you want Jj. To have a chance at looking at, we will miss it. So please put it in the Q. A. Box, and I will deal with all of those
Julie Edwards: in our Q. And a period. This Webinar series is part of our commitment to solving bigger problems together, providing continued education in the library space. I am so so happy to see so many of you here
Julie Edwards: today. You can see our upcoming webinars and register for those on our blog. I'll drop a link to that in the Chat trans, in the chat as well. And yes, the video. You can share the video with anybody who's not registered. It's gonna be up on our blog. So feel free to do that.
Julie Edwards: So without further ado. Our presenter today is Jj. Pianke, Jj. Is the applied Health Sciences Librarian at the University of Illinois Orvana champaign. He is an award winning librarian whose research revolves around disability and accessibility for library patrons and employees.
Julie Edwards: His most recent work focuses on the educational and competency needs of library science, graduate students and current employees in regards to disability and accessibility in libraries. This is the second time he is presented for us at Niche Academy. He's a wonderful presenter, and with that I will yield all the time to Jj.
JJ Pionke: No pressure.
JJ Pionke: Hello, everybody! And and Julie said, My name is Bj. Piankey, and
JJ Pionke: today I'm going to talk to you about disability, accommodations and libraries. So we're going to talk about the law. We're going to talk a little bit about the mostly from the employee perspective, though a little bit about from the Administrator perspective as well.
JJ Pionke: I am coming to you from Sunny Detroit. I am at the Medical Library Association meeting for the next couple of days, and I'm just taking a brief break here to talk to all of you.
JJ Pionke: So let's talk about disability, accommodation, and libraries feel free to throw in questions to the Q. A. And Julie will interrupt me if there are questions and so forth, especially if I jargon, or say something that you're like. I don't know what that means.
JJ Pionke: so the we'll start with the big caveat
JJ Pionke: paveat caveat, warning danger.
JJ Pionke: I'm not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.
JJ Pionke: So just keep in mind. Not a lawyer, not legal advice.
JJ Pionke: Okay.
JJ Pionke: let's see if I can. There we go. Okay.
JJ Pionke: So the Americans with Disabilities Act Ada was signed into law in 1,990 and 88, covers basically If you have any kind of disability and disabilities defined as something that impacts
JJ Pionke: your activities and daily living
JJ Pionke: activities of daily living are feeding yourself, getting dressed.
JJ Pionke: going to work, buying groceries.
JJ Pionke: using the bathroom, taking a shower, etc.
JJ Pionke: So Ada covers disability, any kind of disability that impacts your daily living it not, is it not only about eyes or ears, or legs or hands, it is also mental health. So if you have
JJ Pionke: depression, severe depression, if you have complex or if you have post-traumatic stress disorder, if you have attention, deficits, etc., etc.
JJ Pionke: Disabilities do not have to be
JJ Pionke: so encompassing. So as you know that
JJ Pionke: your life is completely, you know, revolving around the disability for the 88 to take effect. Right? So it can be a permanent disability that the Ada covers. It can also be temporary.
So I love this little
JJ Pionke: diagram picture thing just found it from another co-presenter actually here at Mla. And this is taken from I believe Microsoft
JJ Pionke: accessibility slide deck.
and one of the reasons I love it is that it goes through like
JJ Pionke: 4 of the major senses
JJ Pionke: and tells you you know what's a permanent disability. So, having one arm, what's a temporary disability? You broke your arm, and then, of course, what is situational
JJ Pionke: in this case, being a new parent.
JJ Pionke: and so each kind of
JJ Pionke: you know, potential disability is somewhat covered by Ada depending on what's going on. New parenthood, not covered by Ada.
JJ Pionke: having one arm covered by Ada, broken arm covered by Ada
JJ Pionke: Long Covid covered by Ada.
JJ Pionke: Right. So these are all things that are covered by Ada most of the time we think of as being the legislation. That is. You know how many inches between bookstacks. What is the angle of our ramps?
JJ Pionke: And that's true
JJ Pionke: right. It does give us the standards
JJ Pionke: for what is it set? Quote unquote accessibility
JJ Pionke: of our buildings. but it also covers workplace accommodations. So that is another thing that Ada is important
JJ Pionke: for is, how are people with disabilities treated and accommodated in the workplace?
JJ Pionke: Let me see if I can.
JJ Pionke: Oh, I went too far.
JJ Pionke: Okay. So one of the things I want to make clear is an accommodation is not special treatment.
JJ Pionke: I often hear people saying that accommodations are special treatment. It's not special treatment. Accommodations are just that they are accommodations, so that a person with a disability can work
JJ Pionke: at the same level as other people that they can accomplish and finish their their jobs as other people do.
JJ Pionke: It's giving the employee the best chance for success based on their individual needs. Put another way. Theoretically, you wouldn't force a Lefty
JJ Pionke: a left handed person to use right handed figures. So why do we force people all to work the same way? Right? That's just a recipe for disaster. We don't want to do that.
JJ Pionke: so I work at a large institution or a very large institution. U Iuc is about 55,000 students and about 12,000 employee give or take.
JJ Pionke: So keep in mind that this process that i'm going to outline here is coming from the position of a very large institution. So
JJ Pionke: employee needs a substantial accommodation.
JJ Pionke: So one of the things that you can do if you need an accommodation is, you look at. Ask Jan Org
JJ Pionke: and Jan is the job accommodation network. Great website you can put in either
JJ Pionke: an accommodation or you can put in a
JJ Pionke: disease or disability, and it will tell you like These are the accommodations that are most common for this to get your disability.
JJ Pionke: and that's actually super helpful. So also keep in mind that you know, just because and accommodation works for me. If you have exactly the same disability
JJ Pionke: that accommodation might not work for you.
JJ Pionke: Right. We have different bodies. We might have multiple disabilities that interact in different ways. So everybody's accommodations and disabilities are unique to them.
JJ Pionke: It's kind of like, you know
JJ Pionke: if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism. Right? I'll tell them, is different, for every person you meet
Same thing with disability in general.
JJ Pionke: So if you have to go on the accommodation journey.
JJ Pionke: you would contact your Hr. Or if there's a disability office, you would contact the disability office to start the accommodation process.
JJ Pionke: Usually this means you're filling out a form to initiate the process, and then you meet with some kind of representative. So an Hr. Representative or Disability Office representative
JJ Pionke: Part of the requirement for accommodations for via the law is that you have to provide proof of accommodation, or i'm sorry. Proof of disability
JJ Pionke: and proof of disability is usually some kind of Doctor's note.
JJ Pionke: Large institutions like you, you see, actually have a form that the doctor fills out. So you just get a copy of the form. You send it to your doctor. This is all a lot easier now with
JJ Pionke: electronic health records like epic, where you can just email the form to your doctor instead of actually bringing it in. And you know. paying for a visit and all that kind of stuff.
JJ Pionke: So
JJ Pionke: the negative is that if your disability isn't already documented
JJ Pionke: before you start the accommodation process, get get it documented, get it diagnosed. Diagnosis can take a long time.
JJ Pionke: especially depending on where you are in the Champagne Urbana area where you see is located. It's a 6 month. Wait to see a psychiatrist
JJ Pionke: and a psychiatrist is the one that can do a lot of mental health disability diagnosing right. But it's 6 months until you can get a a new
JJ Pionke: patient appointment.
So keep in mind that
JJ Pionke: you may have to go through testing. You may have to see a specialist. and this is, if you, Haven't, been diagnosed as ever. Yet. If you have been diagnosed already.
JJ Pionke: you should be okay. proceed. So you'll provide a documentation of your disability.
JJ Pionke: and then that documentation will also include
JJ Pionke: what kinds of accommodations you're looking for. And this is where you can guide your medical provider
JJ Pionke: and say, like you know, I need this instead of that.
JJ Pionke: because again, your disability is unique to you in a lot of ways. So your provider should include a list of this, or accommodations that will work best for you.
JJ Pionke: The thing that's not cool is that often
JJ Pionke: the at large institutions, the negotiation
JJ Pionke: over the accommodation doesn't include
JJ Pionke: the actual person needing the accommodation it's usually hashed out between disability Services or Hr. And your manager, Supervisor Department Head, who was in charge of you.
JJ Pionke: Then Usually they'll come back to you with basically an offer of Do you want to try this? And you can say yes, no, maybe.
JJ Pionke: and go from there. So I was having a lot of problems with noise
JJ Pionke: and the sorry. These are not comfortable. Conference tears.
JJ Pionke: I was having problems with noise, and Hr. Came back with. you know. Can we have you try a couple of different brands of noise, cancelling headphones.
JJ Pionke: and I was like, you know what? Sure i'll try.
JJ Pionke: What's the worst that can happen. They don't work for me. So
JJ Pionke: you know I wanted to show that I was willing to negotiate, willing to work with
JJ Pionke: the library, and, you know, try different a couple of different brands.
None of them worked, unfortunately.
JJ Pionke: but I was willing to try. And then. once you find an accommodation that works. You know you do the accommodation. There's usually a follow up within
JJ Pionke: a month.
JJ Pionke: 3 months, half a year, somewhere around there. Of
JJ Pionke: how is the accommodation working.
JJ Pionke: Is it still working for you? Do we need to make changes?
JJ Pionke: Yes, no, maybe so. and then go from there. So yeah. there can be a lot going on there.
JJ Pionke: So there's a couple key phrases in the law. Substantial accommodation is one of those key phrases.
So a substantial accommodation is going to be something that is substantial.
JJ Pionke: Changing your work hours relocating the workstation from the basement to the fourth floor.
JJ Pionke: Yeah. working from home completely. These are all substantial accommodations.
JJ Pionke: Accommodations that are small
JJ Pionke: may not necessarily need to be documented. It depends on the workplace. A lot of workplaces where there's a small combination like getting a balance ball instead of a office chair.
JJ Pionke: Lot of places will just like, okay, here's your balance ball rather than going through all of the paperwork.
JJ Pionke: Okay. so that that would be minor accommodations. you know, if it's if you think it's a minor accommodation, talk to your supervisor. Talk to Hr. and say, you know I kind of need this to make
JJ Pionke: it easier for me to do my job. I'm, you know, getting a lot of risk paying. Is there a way I can get a
a wrist.
JJ Pionke: for when i'm using the computer or things like that, that's a minor accommodation, and the chances are very good that no one's going to cause a fuss, and they're just going to give it to you.
JJ Pionke: But substantial accommodations are usually substantial, because they involve
JJ Pionke: either a lot of money. or they involve a significant change to how things are done
JJ Pionke: and so forth.
JJ Pionke: So another part of the law of Ada is essential job function. So, for instance, what are the core functions of your job?
JJ Pionke: And an example is, i'm a i'm a liaison librarian, so i'm not a reference librarian. But i'm a liaison librarian, and
JJ Pionke: initially part of my job included like one to 2 h a week on the reference desk is one to 2 h a week an essential job function. Nope.
JJ Pionke: it is not. And the reason it's not in a potential job function is because the time is so limited out of a 40 h week. We work week.
JJ Pionke: I am spending 38 h on other stuff right
JJ Pionke: now.
JJ Pionke: If my reference desk duty was 10 h a week
JJ Pionke: or 15 h a week. Is that an essential job function? Yes. it's taking up a lot more time of my work week, you know it's taking up a quarter of my work week.
That's an essential job function.
JJ Pionke: So when we think about essential job functions. you can still get an accommodation, even if the even if it will affect your essential job function. But there may be more resistance
JJ Pionke: from the library in terms of accommodating whatever it is you need.
JJ Pionke: because it will impact other people much more aggressively. Does that mean that the library will not give you an accommodation if it impacts an essential job function. No.
JJ Pionke: it doesn't.
What it does mean is that there may need to be an alteration of your job, function.
JJ Pionke: or and on the it's very extreme end. You may be shifted to another job.
JJ Pionke: and someone else who can complete that essential job function is put in your place.
JJ Pionke: You're still employed. You still have a job, but it would be a different job. That's it, stream. I haven't seen that one happen.
JJ Pionke: but i'm only in libraries. and i'm not a lawyer.
JJ Pionke: So the big one that a lot of people
JJ Pionke: get hung up on is reasonable. What is a reasonable accommodation? The definition varies. Of course it does. What's reasonable to the employee. You may not be reasonable to the employer, and vice versa.
JJ Pionke: but there's a lot of flexibility that can be provided to the employee from the employer.
JJ Pionke: For me personally, the rule of thumb is, the employee knows what they need. Trust them that they know what they need, and that they're going to articulate to you what works best for them.
JJ Pionke: They are the
experts of their disability and of their bodies.
JJ Pionke: So it behooves us to trust that.
JJ Pionke: However, there is a clause in the Ada called undue hardship. So if the accommodation
JJ Pionke: would represent a significant financial hardship.
JJ Pionke: you need a $10,000 office chair.
JJ Pionke: The I want to say University. The employer could say no right this, you know. Attend we're we're a three-person rural library and a $10,000 office chair is not going to happen.
JJ Pionke: So some of this is going to be large institutions versus small institutions. A large institution can
JJ Pionke: consume the cost
JJ Pionke: of more expensive accommodations more eagerly than smaller institutions
JJ Pionke: generally. The rule of phone is that employers in this case libraries should be putting aside one to 2% of their budgets for accommodations.
JJ Pionke: keeping in mind also that accommodations may not be one time things.
JJ Pionke: So, for instance, you're having a all employee get together, and you have.
JJ Pionke: I don't know, would say, 50 employees. 10 of them are completely work from home because of disability concerns and health concerns, especially around Covid. So
JJ Pionke: 40 employees at this event are getting lunch
JJ Pionke: now. Technically, you don't have to give lunch to those and work from home employees, but you know, good inclusive practice would be.
JJ Pionke: Send them a grub, hub gift card. send them lunch. be inclusive, and that could come out of an accommodation. But budget potentially. So. Some accommodations are going to be one off
JJ Pionke: in terms of You're hosting a local author, and
JJ Pionke: somebody wants to. You know somebody who's deaf in the sign Language needs an interpreter. Interpretation is $250 an hour. depending on where you're at. so that could come out of an accommodation budget potentially as Well.
JJ Pionke: it's in one half a day or another. So when you're talking to an employee with who needs an accommodation.
JJ Pionke: Sorry. Do ask if they need an accommodation. but always approach from a position of
JJ Pionke: talking about work performance. Okay. you don't want to ask. Well, what's your disability? Are you getting medication?
JJ Pionke: Are you doing therapy. Have you tried? You go?
JJ Pionke: No.
JJ Pionke: no. you don't want to do any of those things
JJ Pionke: expressed concern about work, performance about work, environment and needs, behavioral needs
JJ Pionke: and accommodations for those
JJ Pionke: rather than in in rather than asking about specific
JJ Pionke: disease, disability, conditions, etc. It's against the law. It's illegal
to a point.
JJ Pionke: So, for instance. if you, if somebody gets an accommodation.
JJ Pionke: you don't have to say anything to the rest of the unit. you have to say anything at all. So in this example on the bottom. because of persons continuing problems with noise and light, they are moving to
JJ Pionke: an office somewhere else. That's illegal.
JJ Pionke: Why is it illegal because the person who wrote this email
JJ Pionke: just revealed that this person has a disability, and they did so without that person's consent?
JJ Pionke: That is the dense Ada that that's a lawsuit. Okay.
JJ Pionke: from the employees perspective.
JJ Pionke: you know, asking for accommodations is really hard. and there's a lot of stigma around disability and accessibility, and especially mental health disabilities.
JJ Pionke: you know, revealing that you have a disability. put you into a very vulnerable position. And so
JJ Pionke: ultimately what you really need to do if you have a disability, and you're thinking about an accommodation is to really think about
JJ Pionke: return on investment. You know you want to do a risk, benefit, analysis. and whether or not this is going to help you or hurt you.
JJ Pionke: And there's a lot of ways that
JJ Pionke: and accommodation can help and hurt
JJ Pionke: right. It can help you in the short run
JJ Pionke: with making things easier for your add.
JJ Pionke: or you know you get to move your office and be closer to a restroom to accommodate.
JJ Pionke: You know the needs of having to go more often.
JJ Pionke: But
you know we know that workplace cultures can be very weird.
JJ Pionke: So even though in a perfect world, I would say, Of course there's not going to be a retaliation. Of course there's no stigma. Of course people are just gonna understand.
JJ Pionke: Unfortunately, that's not necessarily how the world works, especially in the library world.
JJ Pionke: So, being aware of the culture of the library that you work in is really important. and you know, where are you in terms of
JJ Pionke: you need this accommodation? Are you intending to stay in this job forever?
JJ Pionke: Are you in a desperate place, and that's why you need it.
JJ Pionke: you know.
JJ Pionke: Is your supervisor going to be pro accommodation or anti- accommodation?
JJ Pionke: These are all things to really think about when you're doing an accommodation. Do I hate telling you this? Yeah. I do. Unfortunately.
JJ Pionke: it's the library world that we work in.
JJ Pionke: And you know one of the questions sometimes I get is
JJ Pionke: well, you know it can't be that bad right it can, you know. surely. Only a couple. Libraries are bad aids.
JJ Pionke: It's more widespread than you think. So
JJ Pionke: A lot of libraries interpret the law and accommodations as special treatment.
JJ Pionke: My special treatment then. is used basically can be weaponized
as a way to single out
JJ Pionke: other people, especially people with disabilities. Another way to look at this is looking at statistics. So in 2,017. Ala did a demographic survey, and 2,017 is the most recent numbers that they have
JJ Pionke: of the participants who took the demographic survey 2.9 1 2, point 9. One
JJ Pionke: said they had a disability.
JJ Pionke: The center for disease control and prevention guys that about
JJ Pionke: 25% of the American population has a disability. 25%
JJ Pionke: 3%.
JJ Pionke: That's a huge disparity. Why is the disparity? That big?
JJ Pionke: That's a good question. and a lot of it has to do with libraries adhering to the medical model of disability. And you know disability is something that should be fixed.
JJ Pionke: not something that's with you. Life long.
JJ Pionke: and other things like Well, we're ada compliant. That's good enough. Ada. Compliance is the bare minimum required by law. You're proud of having the bare minimum
JJ Pionke: that doesn't seem very cool.
JJ Pionke: So you know.
JJ Pionke: there's a lot going on in libraries, and how we think about disability. Disability is far more prevalent. Not just in our patrons, but in our employees than we realize.
JJ Pionke: and it's an area that we have not been giving enough attention to ever. That's starting to change a little bit, I think. but it's slow.
JJ Pionke: So if things go sideways and you're the employee.
JJ Pionke: you do have legal options. so every state, every state, every State has a free disability legal center in Illinois. The State i'm. From it's called equip for quality. The National Disability Rights Network
JJ Pionke: has a listing for the States. so that can help you find
JJ Pionke: these legal centers, and you can usually get representation for free
JJ Pionke: a lot of times if you have to go down the representation road.
JJ Pionke: It's just a letter, a lot of time. What I've seen is that a lot of times
JJ Pionke: bringing a lawyer in, especially if things have been lingering for a long time.
JJ Pionke: as in a year. 8 months whatever
JJ Pionke: bringing a lawyer in and having them write a letter saying, hey. you need to resolve this. It should have been resolved, you know, a year ago. and this is far longer than is appropriate according to the law.
JJ Pionke: Usually the employer is going to cave pretty quickly. But again, what are the hitting costs of lawyering up? Will there be a retaliation?
JJ Pionke: Good question. you know, or will the
JJ Pionke: employer, you know, basically just laugh at you and take you to court.
JJ Pionke: You know it could go either way.
JJ Pionke: So you know it kind of depends on what's going on the culture, how people look at disability. It's a lot.
JJ Pionke: Okay. So that was a lot in a very short period of time. But I know there's going to be like a 1 million questions. which is why I you get through.
JJ Pionke: So you have my email address. So you can always email me, of course, and I have your 2 just kept pictures up there.
JJ Pionke: but I would like to spend the rest of the time answering your questions, because you probably have more questions than I can probably answer.
Julie Edwards: You're getting a lot of happy people with the cat pictures, including me. So thank you for that. Somebody just said came to the presentation, Stay for the you love it. Yeah, you are exactly right. There are a lot of questions, and I expect more to come in, and so we will just go through as many as we can.
Julie Edwards: Someone's asking, Does a doctor have to say that you need accommodations, or just that you have a certain condition or disability.
JJ Pionke: They have to certify that you have a certain condition or disability is to smooth the road. I would say that they should also
JJ Pionke: make a recommendation of
JJ Pionke: a
JJ Pionke: buffet of accommodations that might work for you. So, for instance, I have complex books to add express disorder.
JJ Pionke: I actually had my therapist fill out my form.
JJ Pionke: and when I talk to the disability person I was like. Do you want the doctor who just fills out the prescription. Or do you want the therapist who is actually treating me?
JJ Pionke: And the disability person was like, I want the therapist. I'm like, okay. So you know, I took the Forum to my therapist and my therapist, who, of course, has written several of these.
JJ Pionke: was like, okay, the best thing to do is what kinds of accommodations would help you. and I was like Well, you know it. The noise really bothers me, because my at the time my office was like right next to a bunch of computer stations
JJ Pionke: that students were using. So she's like, okay, so maybe noise cancelling headphones, or maybe in a white noise machine
JJ Pionke: could be either one. So you know, she put down both as potential options for accommodation.
JJ Pionke: so giving the employer some some potential choices that may work
JJ Pionke: can be very helpful.
Julie Edwards: That's great thanks, and it leads to a similar question is an official diagnosis needed? What happens if you have chronic issues? There's been a ton of diagnostic tests. Nothing comes back conclusively. Can a doctor still write documentation.
Julie Edwards: despite a lack of an official diagnosis?
JJ Pionke: If they have diagnosed you with
JJ Pionke: some kind of severe arthritis. even though that's only one part of everything that's going on. You can get accommodations for that severe arthritis.
JJ Pionke: So usually you need to have the diagnosis to get the accommodation. If you're a complex medical case. Sometimes you can break that down into individual pieces.
JJ Pionke: the like. I have 3 disabilities. So I have complex post-traumatic stress disorder. which is mental health.
JJ Pionke: my size, i'm a super fat. That's a problem, because
JJ Pionke: I don't fit in a regular chair. Case point. I've been wiggling around on this chair for the last 35 min.
and
JJ Pionke: I have mobility, disability. So basically there's no cartilage left in my knees or ankles. It's about as painful as you think it is
JJ Pionke: so if I wanted to get like.
JJ Pionke: and a so I have an accommodation actually to work from home
JJ Pionke: because of my busted legs.
JJ Pionke: So I don't have that accommodation
JJ Pionke: for the C. Ptsd. But I have it for the legs, because it's extremely difficult for me to walk.
JJ Pionke: so I hope that answer your question.
Julie Edwards: It actually in some ways leads to another question: what about disabilities like arthritis that change on a daily basis. So some days feel great, and other days tasks are extremely difficult. What's the recommendation in a situation like that?
JJ Pionke: Always focus on your worst day.
JJ Pionke: That's the answer. Always focus on your works Day.
JJ Pionke: Because, even though you are going to have good days, and you're going to have bad days. And believe me, I know
JJ Pionke: if you say that.
JJ Pionke: you know. But most of the time i'm okay.
JJ Pionke: that most of the time i'm. Okay is going to be heard as I'm. Okay, most of the time.
JJ Pionke: And when you are in a position where that arthritis is
JJ Pionke: crippling on a a rainy day.
JJ Pionke: you know you're gonna get questioned. Well, why, Don't, you just push through it.
JJ Pionke: You said You're okay, most of the time.
JJ Pionke: Also disability. I mean, for the most part disabilities aren't curable. Some things, of course, are curable. Maybe it's surgery.
JJ Pionke: etc., but
JJ Pionke: for the most part things like arthritis aren't going to get better. They're just going to get worse. So you know the example you want to give are always from your worst day.
JJ Pionke: because your worst day is going to be happening more often the longer you live.
JJ Pionke: I know that's really, you know. awesome, and makes you feel warm in front of you inside. But it's true.
Julie Edwards: Thank you for the honesty someone's asking. Is there a reasonable timeframe for Hr. To get back to you about their decision.
JJ Pionke: Rule of thumb? It's not documented. But rule of thumb is about a month
JJ Pionke: sometimes, you know.
JJ Pionke: 2 months, one to 2 months, depending on what's going on, you know, if you, if
JJ Pionke: The accommodation process requires a meeting with 5 people that can take a while to get on now to get that meeting on 5 calendars.
JJ Pionke: but usually from beginning to end. It should only be
JJ Pionke: a couple of weeks.
If you have a If you have an accommodation
JJ Pionke: that's been lingering for more than 6 months. or even more than 3 months.
JJ Pionke: But try to find out what the reason is. and if they can't give you a good reason. lawyer.
JJ Pionke: because there's some reason that they're stalling.
JJ Pionke: and it could be any number of reasons why they're stalling. And you know in one case that I know of it was because the Supervisor
JJ Pionke: didn't want to honor the accommodation. So they kept on installing. hoping it would go away. So. But yeah, usually a couple of weeks. one to 2 months. Max
JJ Pionke: is kind of the rule of thumb. Basically.
JJ Pionke: if it's if you've been lingering for a year way too long. Lawyer.
Julie Edwards: Thank you.
Julie Edwards: Umhm. Several questions have come in from our colleagues and smaller libraries asking about, what do you do in a situation where you're really small library?
Julie Edwards: Someone needs accommodation. There's no hr. The person's not full time. They don't have benefits there's no budget there's no other job for them to do, or money to create another job. What what happens in those cases?
JJ Pionke: If it's a public library
JJ Pionke: receiving public money. the library is beholden to the law. They have to follow it. Now. how far. Do you want to go?
JJ Pionke: Sometimes it's about education
JJ Pionke: where you know the library? Small library may be bulking because they don't really understand the law.
JJ Pionke: or because they're worried about. you know. Well, if we give Jane
JJ Pionke: this accommodation, Joe and Mary are going to want it to one that's false thinking 2.
JJ Pionke: It's an accommodation, and accommodations are unique to each individual.
JJ Pionke: so sometimes it's about education.
JJ Pionke: Sometimes it's not, and unfortunately in that position. The question then becomes is, how far is the person willing to go?
JJ Pionke: How far are they willing to fight.
JJ Pionke: you know? Do they want to lawyer up? Are they willing to lawyer up.
JJ Pionke: or do they leave the position to move on? Do I hate saying that to you? Yes, I do. because it's not right. and unfortunately.
JJ Pionke: you know it's a thing that happens a lot in libraries.
Julie Edwards: Thank you.
Julie Edwards: Someone's asking, what do you recommend If you've been diagnosed with something that's likely to lead to future mobility issues. You don't currently need accommodations, but you know that that's coming down the pike.
Julie Edwards: What's the best course of action to wait until they're needed, or to bring it up.
JJ Pionke: Wait until you're starting to need it.
JJ Pionke: because that down the pike could be 3 months it could be a decade
JJ Pionke: you don't know. And what I would do in the meantime is. what are your options? What do you think you're going to need? So basically prepare yourself.
JJ Pionke: You know. Figure out what it, what accommodations would work best for you down the road.
JJ Pionke: you know. Review the policy
JJ Pionke: of your institution, whether large or small.
JJ Pionke: If you can't find any policies might be time to just say.
JJ Pionke: Hey, supervisor, Person Hr. Person.
JJ Pionke: I can't find the policies about Ada accommodations
JJ Pionke: where might they be.
JJ Pionke: you know. And so, you know, preparing the institution and yourself
JJ Pionke: for a potential accommodation a little bit down the road it could. But especially if the institution you're at doesn't have any experience doing accommodations
JJ Pionke: doing that education, even though you shouldn't have to let me be clear on that.
JJ Pionke: But doing that, education could help, you will definitely help you in the long run.
JJ Pionke: So if you have the gift of time. use that gift wisely
Julie Edwards: the great answer. Thank you. I want to take a pause here just to let everyone know that I will be sending the slides and the recording. I will send the Chat Transcript. I'm gonna do something a little different this time. There people have been revealing a lot of things in the chat. If for some reason there's something I never ever do this, and it
Julie Edwards: it won't be a habit. But if there's something in the chat that about that you have revealed about yourself personally that you don't want out there in public. Please email me after, and I can do my best to edit that out of the chat. There's a lot of really great links and information going around. But I want to make sure that everybody is comfortable, knowing that
Julie Edwards: this is going to be out there, because there's a lot of a really vulnerable stuff in there which I appreciate you sharing.
Julie Edwards: Jj: we've had several questions come in about the interview process. Can you ask? Or when's the best time to reveal a disability. What accommodations should you ask for in an interview? Anything that you would like to speak to that?
JJ Pionke: So, as a applicant, you are covered by the Ada. So if you need accommodations during the interview process. the Ada covers you, and the institution that you're trying to interview with
JJ Pionke: needs to honor those accommodations.
JJ Pionke: If they don't, do, I really want to work for them?
JJ Pionke: So keep that in mind as someone with
JJ Pionke: one very obvious disabilities and 2. I write about this a lot.
JJ Pionke: It's my research. So i'm what they call obvious. So when i'm interviewing for potential positions.
JJ Pionke: I am just up front with the accommodations I need during the interview process. So, for instance, being an Academia. if
JJ Pionke: I make it to the second interview, which is usually a Facebook-based visit. I say, listen!
JJ Pionke: Here are the 2 options for a Face-to-face visit option. One is very expensive, and is going to be very painful for me right, and that is actually flying me out to wherever we're going.
JJ Pionke: Option 2 is we do it all online.
JJ Pionke: And honestly, I prefer that we do it all online because it's a lot less painful physically
JJ Pionke: people. So there's that
JJ Pionke: in terms of Do you reveal disability during the interview process?
JJ Pionke: But you didn't need an accommodation
JJ Pionke: for the process itself
JJ Pionke: totally up to you. that
JJ Pionke: again, theoretically, the Ada says that they cannot discriminate against you, based on
JJ Pionke: your need for an accommodation based on your disability status. It's really hard to prove in law that a company has
JJ Pionke: discriminated against you and not hired you. because. you know, you have migraines. So
JJ Pionke: you know it comes down to, I think.
JJ Pionke: What's your comfort level? How severe is your visibility
JJ Pionke: in terms of is this something that you're gonna need accommodation for right away.
JJ Pionke: Or is this something where you can figure out how accommodation friendly is this workplace?
JJ Pionke: You know those are things to think about again. I hate telling you that.
JJ Pionke: But this is the world we live in.
JJ Pionke: you know. Part of the rule of Thumb, I think, is also going to be
JJ Pionke: if you're getting pushback on just on accommodations.
JJ Pionke: Do you really want to work there?
JJ Pionke: My answer is no
JJ Pionke: because it's going to be more hassle than it's worth.
Julie Edwards: Thanks. That's great. There have been several questions about once You've been granted an accommodation. Can it be taken away from you later on?
JJ Pionke: That's a good question.
JJ Pionke: Theoretically it can. Yes. for instance, you have a job change.
JJ Pionke: So your actual job description changes.
JJ Pionke: and you know you're no longer.
JJ Pionke: You're no longer going to be working in the building. You're going to be a 100% work from home.
JJ Pionke: Well, if you're 100% work from home. you Don't need an office anymore. So if your accommodation was originally to have a private office. that accommodation will be removed because you don't need that office anymore, because you're not working in the building anymore.
JJ Pionke: So their accommodations can be removed if it makes sense to do so. But for the most part, once in accommodation has been granted
JJ Pionke: that accommodation is permanent. unless there is an agreement that it needs to be modified for whatever reason
Julie Edwards: awesome thanks.
Julie Edwards: Several people have asked some version of the question of Can you speak to people without disabilities who say things like you look fine? There, doesn't you know. How do you deal with with that, and may maybe the question is like, how should people
Julie Edwards: quote unquote without disabilities, deal with that as opposed to? How should people with disabilities have to respond to that. Does that question make sense to you?
JJ Pionke: Yeah. Kind of I mean. it ends up. Being a really weird
JJ Pionke: being in a really weird position of you know I've had people look at me and say. Well, you're not fat, and i'm like honey that are your eyes. Okay?
JJ Pionke: I'm fat. You know i'm what they call obvious. So
JJ Pionke: sometimes people, you know, try to sugar coat or put a positive spin on issues or
JJ Pionke: a disability, and you know that's them trying to normalize and be like. Oh, your disability is not too bad. You're fine. and they're like. No, that's not true.
JJ Pionke: and I think it comes down to. How much do you want to push back?
JJ Pionke: And honestly, how many spoons do you have? If you don't know what spoon theory is
JJ Pionke: to the Internet. We're all librarians look up spoon theory.
JJ Pionke: It's basically a analogy for energy. How much energy do you have to take on educating this person? And that's a good question.
JJ Pionke: How much energy do you have in the moment to educate somebody? How much energy do you have to fight the fight?
Sometimes the answer is, I have locked, and sometimes the answer is, I don't have any at all.
JJ Pionke: So I think it depends on how you're feeling.
JJ Pionke: what you're feeling. What is your relationship to the person?
JJ Pionke: Are they a boss? Are they a colleague?
JJ Pionke: Are they somebody? You see every day somebody you never see. I you see him once a year. You know your mileage may vary. so
JJ Pionke: I, if I have the energy for it, I tend to try to go for the teachable moment. And so if someone's like
JJ Pionke: well, you don't look disabled. you know my response is No, I assure you i'm very disabled.
JJ Pionke: and these are the ways that i'm disabled, and I find it offensive that you think i'm not.
JJ Pionke: and that can be really eye opening for people. However. keep in mind. I am blunt. I am very much.
JJ Pionke: Some people would say that i'm aggressive about you know disability, rights and disability, education
JJ Pionke: and those things are all true. And of course, how much paid am I in right now?
JJ Pionke: I'm in a lot of pain?
JJ Pionke: I need drugs actually. So you know. Right now. I'm more likely to snap at somebody, then to sit them down and say, hey.
JJ Pionke: you know what you said was kind of offensive to me. Let's have a talk about that.
JJ Pionke: I'm less likely to do that right now because of my pain levels. So, as I said, your mileage may vary on how you approach it. But I try to usually do it as a teachable moment.
Julie Edwards: Thank you so much. Jj: someone's asking.
Julie Edwards: This is an interesting question: what are the pros and cons of including the person needing the accommodation in the negotiation between the Supervisor and Hr. Should that person be involved?
JJ Pionke: I personally think they should be. However. I understand why they're usually not. and a lot of times it has to do with.
JJ Pionke: you know, Supervisors not understanding disability, and so therefore they're in a safe space
JJ Pionke: to be ableist. and as inappropriate questions.
JJ Pionke: and be told No. without losing face in front of the employee. A lot of time, you know, in a perfect world. They all paid attention to the accessibility, disability, training when they became supervisors
JJ Pionke: in the real world. We know that a lot of them didn't, if there even was any training.
JJ Pionke: And how good was the training.
JJ Pionke: So
JJ Pionke: you know. Yeah. I you know, if you're the kind of person that can advocate for themselves. and educate. you know, and your sure of yourself.
JJ Pionke: especially in terms of the law, and so forth.
JJ Pionke: you know. Then I think Yes, it's not necessarily a bad idea
JJ Pionke: to have the person with a disability in that meeting, but a lot of times they're not in that meeting, I think, often for their own safety.
JJ Pionke: mental or otherwise. because there's a lot of Ableism
JJ Pionke: There's a lot of able with some period, but I've seen a lot of ableism in the Academy, and a lot of able with them in libraries.
Julie Edwards: Thank you.
Julie Edwards: Great question. How should supervisors respond to commons from employees? When coworkers see someone's accommodations and think, or complain that they're receiving. Quote unquote special treatment.
JJ Pionke: Shut that down. It is not their business about why
JJ Pionke: that person gets 5 5 min breaks instead of 1 15 min break.
JJ Pionke: It's not their business that you know.
JJ Pionke: The the employee has a yoga mat in the office so that they can, You know work on the floor
JJ Pionke: because of spinal problems.
JJ Pionke: It's not their business. and
JJ Pionke: it's not special treatment, and
JJ Pionke: you know part of my witty repartee is. pray you never need an accommodation.
JJ Pionke: I mean the needing and accommodation steps.
JJ Pionke: because it means that my brain, my body, are not working in ways that I want it to work.
JJ Pionke: and that I have to make changes to my environment.
JJ Pionke: for my brain and my body to work more efficiently.
JJ Pionke: You know, as things continue to fall apart. Believe me, if I had. I don't know why. Nobody told me that when I hit 40 my body would just like go flat.
JJ Pionke: But I wish somebody had told me.
JJ Pionke: But yes, shut that down. You know the that kind of behavior from other employees hurts the employee with a disability.
JJ Pionke: and Also, it's mean spirited. That's not okay.
JJ Pionke: Where's that? Where are those People's Empathy and compassion. That's a cultural issue that needs to be addressed.
Julie Edwards: Thank you so much. Several people are asking questions about the library in general, and the way that patrons and staff interact with it. So
So there's a lot of questions, you know, requirement of space between bookstacks and study rooms and things like that. Do you have sort of a recommendation for a one stop shop for for finding
Julie Edwards: information about those kinds of things
Julie Edwards: I have linked actually, before you answer that, let me just say that I put a link to Jj's presentation with Niche Academy last year in the chat, and some of this stuff shows up in there. Go ahead. Jj: yeah, there's I would say there's no really one good place
JJ Pionke: it.
JJ Pionke: There's lots of stuff on different kinds
JJ Pionke: of disability and accessibility. So there's a lot of stuff about accommodations or accessibility issues around digital stuff.
JJ Pionke: Now. Well. how do you define digital stuff? Well, on the one hand, we have Powerpoint word excel.
JJ Pionke: On the other hand, we have databases how we evaluate for accessibility for either. One of those things is very different.
JJ Pionke: So there isn't a one-stop shop. But there are some really good resources out there for education purposes. I really like project enable out of Syracuse.
JJ Pionke: and it's free. It's developed for librarians. There's a certificate. They have a handout that's a checklist for physical accessibility of libraries based on Ada requirements.
JJ Pionke: It's a really simple easy to understand checklist rather than actually diving into the law which will make you want to cry.
JJ Pionke: So there's things like that.
JJ Pionke: you know. There used to be an ifflow checklist. It's terribly outdated. I wouldn't use it. They're supposed to be updating it. But I haven't seen I haven't seen a new one come out yet.
JJ Pionke: so your mileage may vary.
JJ Pionke: but there's actually a lot of really good stuff out there.
JJ Pionke: but you do need to go looking for it, and partially you need to have the vocabulary to look forward. which kind of sucks. But there it is.
Julie Edwards: Thank you so much. Jj: there are 2 dozen more questions in the the chat. We are at time, and I want to respect Jj's time, and everyone else's time here. I really really appreciate Jj: your expertise and experience, and the time you took to sort of walk us through all of this today. Thank you.
JJ Pionke: You're welcome
JJ Pionke: if you Still, if you still have questions, please do email me. I'm happy to answer them.
Julie Edwards: You're getting a lot of thank yous in the in the chat. Someone says this has been absolutely amazing, and I agree.
Julie Edwards: Thank you for coming back and and presenting for us again. Jj: I will send all this information out to you in a few days. Thank you all for coming. I hope that
Julie Edwards: this was Someone says this is more enlightening than other Webinars. I love it. So take that with you to the rest of your day. Jj: Thank you. And people are saying, Thank you for the cat pictures also.
Julie Edwards: Thank you all so much. We'll see you at the next Webinar. Have a great rest of your week. Thanks, everybody. Bye, bye.